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Do you have a recruiting plan in place?

On this episode of The Digital Shop® Talk Radio, we met with Jay Goninen from WrenchWay and Fred Gestwicki from Fix-it With Fred about how to build an All-Star team for your Digital Shop. We’ll talk about winning strategies to succeed in today’s tough climate and give some insights to help you prepare for the future, as digital technology redefines traditional auto shop roles.

  • Hear best practices for recruiting the right people for your operation
  • Learn how to build a bench of talent
  • Discover how The Digital Shop® is enabling innovative shops to re-imagine traditional roles.

Episode Transcript

*This transcript was generated using Artificial Intelligence. Errors may occur. If you notice an error, please contact [email protected].

Tom Dorsey (00:00:03):
Good morning and good afternoon. Welcome to this week’s edition of The Digital Shop Talk Radio. I’m Tom Dorsey and we’ve got a great show for you today. We’re going to be talking, recruiting, and specifically how to build an all-star team on a budget inside of your shop. And so welcome for the first time on my show, you might’ve caught me on his show a couple weeks back. Jay Goninen from WrenchWay/Find A Wrench. Jay, welcome my friend.
Jay Goninen (00:00:28):
Thanks for having me and kudos to being able to say my last name. That’s amazing.
Tom Dorsey (00:00:33):
Oh dude, I practiced. Yeah, I got another hard one coming up. And Fred Gestwicki Jr. Welcome back sir.
Fred Gestwicki (00:00:42):
Thanks Tom. Good times again. Compliments on the last name. You’ve got practice.
Tom Dorsey (00:00:46):
Yes sir. Well, because Fred is an old friend of the Digital Shop Talk Radio, you guys might recognize this handsome young man. He’s been on several episodes where we talk recruiting and we talk building a bench. And we’ll get an update from Fred how things are progressing in his shop. It’s probably been about six months since we had him on, and I know he’s been busy, busy, busy, but Fred is one of those outside of the box thinkers and he just happens to be a client of Jay. And so I thought what a great idea to bring these two guys together. They seem to get along. I mean, I can’t even tell you the stuff they were talking about in the pre-show stuff. We try to keep this PG on this episode. And of course my expert panel of experts, Uwe Kleinschmidt, founder of AutoVitals. Welcome sir.
Uwe Kleinschmidt (00:01:31):
Good morning and good. What is it? Afternoon for some people already.
Tom Dorsey (00:01:35):
Yeah, it sure is. Somewhere in the world. It’s beer 30. So gentlemen, let’s jump right in. I want to get an update and talk about, and actually Jay if you could kick us off a little bit. You just had a nice event and I wish I could have got in a little bit the whole day because it was really, the parts that I caught was great. You did a kind of recruiting online summit. It was technician 2000 was the name of it. Give us a little update about how that was just last week that worked out for you.
Jay Goninen (00:02:09):
It was great. Honestly, it was our first virtual conference that we’ve ever hosted and we wanted to put something together to really get the, we call it the voice of technician, but really getting the voice of technician because I would go to a lot of other conferences and everybody would talk about technicians, put, the technicians weren’t actually in the room. And so we wanted to get something where we kind of got everybody in the same area, in the same virtual room to talk about all of the key issues that are out there and really where some of the disconnect is between management and technicians because we see it a lot on the recruiting side. So we had a two day event last week. The first day was focused on automotive, the second day was on diesel. We work with both industries exclusively and really what those two days were to get a group of technicians together to talk, get all the issues and what’s great, what’s not great about the industry out on the table, and then really dive into that.
So we had a panel of managers, we had a panel of tech schools. We wanted to talk with tech schools about how could industry better support them. So we were able to do that and then followed it up with just some industry leaders or ended the day with some industry leaders to talk about the industry in general. So it was interesting because we had a mixture of dealership people, we had a mixture of independent people and it was really trying to get everybody in the same room and hopefully really talk about how we get more people into the industry and keep the ones that we already have. So it was incredibly well attended. We’re actually putting, I think all of the videos are now for the automotive side out on YouTube, on our YouTube WrenchWay channel. So you can dive into those videos again, be able to hear what they had to say. And overall, it was awesome. The panelists were incredible, really good people and look forward to doing it again next year.
Tom Dorsey (00:04:11):
So folks want to get signed up for next time. They just Google WrenchWay and they find you. Is there a subscription or a signup sheet you got somewhere you want to let people know how to find you?
Jay Goninen (00:04:21):
So you can go to or Find A Wrench. Either way you can get in touch with us. We do a lot of advertising for technician, and when I say advertising, really marketing to our demographic of customers and whoever we want to get into that, but it really is, they can go to or Find A Wrench and we’ll lead you to where you need to go.
Tom Dorsey (00:04:45):
Awesome. And he had a huge turnout. I mean, because it was a funny thing, Fred, when I talked to folks and I was actually mentioning about being on GA’s podcast. I never miss a seminar, a class information, a discussion about recruiting. And it’s one of those things in the industry where it’s a scary thing. Some people think of it maybe like going to the dentist, you don’t want to go. It’s going to be painful. You don’t want it done the first time. You never want to have to go back. But unfortunately, building a solid all-star team in your business isn’t that cut and dry. It’s not a one and done emergency type of thing. And if it is for you, that’s probably why you don’t like it. You’re struggling. It should be more like working out. It should be more constantly working to improve, looking for talent and building a bench if you don’t have the opening now or even rethinking or relooking at your operation in those traditional roles in your shop to see how you can’t maybe restructure so that you can bring in the talent as you find it. And Fred, we’ve had you on, like I said a couple times talking about exactly that and it’s been a while. How’s it been working out for you? I know it’s, you’ve had some ups and downs.
Fred Gestwicki (00:06:16):
This week especially we practice our hiring practice, our methods that we hire with our existing team. Instead of going, can you fix a car? Yep, you’re hired and hire ’em in just to find out everyone hates them. Most of the time when you lose somebody, you’re not losing them because of a lack of a skill. It’s always some underlying issue, a personality conflict, some home drama that they carry around, like a trailer on the back of a truck, whatever situation, it’s never skill. So we realized that hiring purely upskill doesn’t produce a good result. We use the reason you lose people to hire people. And we had a young man that a year and a half ago when he joined our team, he fit our team’s demographic. It’s a list of qualities and character traits that we use when we interview each person. And gradually over the last two months, he had lost almost every single one of those characteristics and quality traits.
And it was really sad to watch because having weekly one-on-one meetings with him trying to talk to him about how can we get you back? And it ended up where Monday of this week, the young man actually got married on Saturday. It was a really big, he got married a couple months ago, but he had the ceremony on Saturday. We weren’t able to do his quarterly review last week. So we did that on Monday. And some of the things that revealed made it clear to me that there was no improvement coming. There was not a light on the end of the tunnel. I was looking down a well, it was not a tunnel. So I thought about it long and hard and I re-interviewed him in my head I was hiring him and thought I would not hire this guy today. If there was, I had no way around it.
If I had to choose between hiring him and closing my shop, I am not hiring him. So that’s what I had to do Tuesday morning. And as crazy as that sounds, when you have a great business culture and someone leaves, that should decimate your team. It really should. But by talking it out with everybody, I did the exact exercise. I said, we are interviewing him right now. Let’s talk this out. And amongst the group, we all realized that it was the right thing to do. Where today life is a better place. Our culture has improved, each person has made it a point to come to me and thank me for what I did yesterday. So using that, and this is a learning, like you said, Tom, it’s not a one and done. You don’t go in, get your root canal and you’re done. No, you’re learning how to staff, you’re learning how to interview, you’re learning how to hire, you’re getting better at it and you’re getting better at it while your team is getting better at having a culture. So that’s one of the things that happened is he outgrew our culture. I hope he finds a great place to work next, but it’s not here. And everyone here agrees that that’s one of the main things we’ve had on the bench front. I have a couple people trying out for the bench right now, but with our current three technician team, we have an A, B and a GS, but our GS is on growth hormone and steroids both. So he’s actually, you don’t need a
Tom Dorsey (00:09:21):
Fred Gestwicki (00:09:22):
He wants to be a C plus by Thanksgiving. That’s a voiced goal that’s written. So we’re definitely striving towards that. So we’re getting some lower grade players on the bench right now so that when we have that demand and we have that need, we have somebody ready to fill that spot, but we want to be ready with the GS and a C tech on the bench ready to go. And this is a great time of year for that. Yeah, buddy shops are slowing down, people can stay where they’re at, but they’re becoming unhappy and to just put out an ad or put out something that cures those pains that really can attract some top talent that fits your business culture.
Tom Dorsey (00:09:58):
So Jay, there’s a lot to unpack there buddy. So I want to get started on, okay, so this is hit the nail on the head right away, Fred, and I really appreciate that. That was fantastic update. And it’s not, it’s business, that’s how business happens. You have to be prepared. You have to be prepared for these things and it’s not bad on him, bad on you, bad on whatever. But we can prevent these things. So Jay, what are best practices for vetting somebody? How would you go about talking about how do we make sure that that’s going to be that cultural fit? How do we uncover, I mean, should we be snooping through Instagrams and social medias and doing drive-bys of their house to look and see if they got that, what was it, the truck with the trailer strap to the back of it, if they’re living in the driveway? I mean, but seriously, how do we get to that level to where you Yes, they got the skill. Yes, their story that they’re telling me during the interview is getting me worked up, but how do I do those extra steps to make sure I’m making the right decision?
Jay Goninen (00:11:02):
So one thing I absolutely love about Fred is how proactive he is. He’s got processes put in place, he’s got some things that, I’ll be frank, not a lot of shop owners have. And especially on the independent side, we work with all kinds of different independents and there’s obviously the lower tier and then the mid-tier and the higher tier. And you can tell just based on a conversation with where a shot might be at, what we find, and I think this is what Fred hit directly on the head, the nail on the head was trying to find that cultural fit. But in order to do that, you have to proactively look. And what we see all the time is, and really most shops need a tech almost all the time. It’s not like they’re fully staffed and they’re happy. I always go back to an example where I was managing a shop and finally I had mentioned to the service manager there and I said, Hey listen, I think we’re finally set on the shop, we’re in good shape.
And then that week it was like karma just bit me hard because that tech got in a car accident, the A Tech got in a car accident and was displaced for nine months and at the time not even knowing if he’s able to come back. And so that puts you in a really, really bad position because then you’re hiring out of desperation. You’ve got customers yelling at you that you’re two weeks out or whatever it is and you’re not able to get to, even if it’s a simple repair and trying to get a tire fix or something like that. And that really puts you in an awkward position to where you end up hiring the first person that can breathe coming in the door. And in order to avoid that, this is where Fred has a leg up on most is that he’s always looking, he’s putting pieces in place to be building that bench and maintaining relationships.
Not only just getting an application and saying, Hey, we’ll consider you the next time we’re we’re hiring, but actually developing a relationship with that person. So you get to know them ahead of time, you get to know if they’re going to fit your culture. And it’s not just in a crammed 30 to 45 minute period where the phone’s ringing in the background and you’re getting paged every 10 seconds. It is something where if you’re able to actively engage with people ahead of time when you don’t desperately need them. And that’s, Fred mentioned, this might be a time where shops are slowing down what we see in that same time, shops slow down recruiting too because, and it’s funny because it’s everything’s cyclical. It should
Tom Dorsey (00:13:43):
Be the opposite.
Jay Goninen (00:13:45):
The opposite, right? That’s when you should turn it up because that’s when, as Fred mentioned, somebody that might be content but not happy is probably looking around the holidays, it starts to get dead and maybe after that Thanksgiving, Turkey, you’re browsing your phone for jobs. People just don’t think that way though. They think of like, oh no, we’re in January and we are buried and we should have had somebody here 30 days ago and we don’t. And then that’s when that bad hire happens. That’s when that person, that doesn’t fit the culture and everybody knows, and especially if you get a master level tech that comes in the door, most people are hiring that person whether they fit the culture or not. And it’s because they’re desperate for them. And when desperate hires happen, that’s when really, really bad stuff happens.
Tom Dorsey (00:14:31):
So exactly how long have you been on meth? Oh, we can work with, well you might be able to let me, but seriously, and so that brings up a great point though, is that you have to engage. When you find somebody that you would like to have on your team at some point you engage him. Fred, when we had you on talked about, and as a matter of fact, this is how proactive Fred is, just to steal that from Jay is I think Fred today you’re cooking lunch for the crew. You’re coming on the show. Thank you very much. You got more. And I believe the last time we had you talked about engaging your bench folks, you invite ’em down to have lunch with the crew.
Fred Gestwicki (00:15:18):
The most recent hire we have, our GS came to, we have a team meeting every Wednesday where I buy lunch or cook lunch, do something nice for your group. And we invited him to two different team meetings. We wanted to gauge how his interaction was. We wanted to gauge if he was coachable. We wanted to gauge if you can get that newness to wear off because everybody starts and they’re new. Get that newness to wear off before they work for you. Find out who they actually are. Just like you said, you hire out a desperation. Most shop owners forget what it was like to be an employee. And when you take that perspective and go, man, this is guy’s first day at his new job with a bunch of strangers, we try and get rid of a lot of that. Get to know everybody you work with before you start. So yeah, I mean we invited bench members to fun events. I didn’t have a bench member. We went paintballing, any kind of fun stuff. We go to invite people because the worst thing you do is spend some money on a fun event and avoid hiring Mr. Wrong. I am all about doing that.
Jay Goninen (00:16:18):
That’d be the best investment you could make then Fred, right?
Fred Gestwicki (00:16:21):
There’s no W2, just that alone. You don’t have to send them a letter next year to remind yourself that you employed them for one day. You’ve got to try and not look from your perspective. You have to try and look from the new employee’s perspective, from the people that work at your shop’s perspective and see what you’re doing. Because when you hired that super mechanic that’s on meth and you slam him in your shop, everybody’s like, what is wrong with the boss? Why did he bring him in here?
Tom Dorsey (00:16:53):
And if it does go sideways, well you can always remember that you got to shoot him in the face with a paint ball at some point and say that you got that memory. So write that down folks. I mean you should take your crew out. Paintballing. I think it’s a genius idea. You get to work out some steam and you have fond memories. Uwe, let’s talk about the digital shop in here because we’ve been talking a lot about rebounds. We have a lot of shops that are blazing that trail right now. And when it comes to, and I know that from a techs perspective, you got to have people with the skills and the talents and you guys tell me because it seems to me that it’s becoming more and more difficult. You have to have more and more training and more and more licenses that you have to pay for and more and more of this really complex skillset that, I mean I could see it at some point if you’re trying to work, either we’re going to specialize and we’re going to work on one line of vehicles and I can afford all the training on that line or I’m going to have to kind of farm that out at some point.
But from the front counter, we’ve kind of through the digital shop, we’ve been able to open up I think opportunities. And if you could talk to us a little bit about how you perceive that you’ve done a lot of work and analysis and study and how the front counter interacts the dynamic between the individuals and also between the motorist and the front counter, and how do you see that digital shop position alleviating some of that stress and worry from a recruiting perspective in a digital shop?
Uwe Kleinschmidt (00:18:32):
Thank you. Yeah, I have a burning question though please. What
Tom Dorsey (00:18:37):
It burned is fire ’em out. This is the Digital Shop Talk Radio. We’re quick on the draw
Uwe Kleinschmidt (00:18:41):
Here, so I don’t want to, here’s the thing, business books tell you hire always people who are better than you. You can write that easily down and then in practice it’s going to be hard. So my question to Jay and Fred is, I mean I love this proactive reaching out and then having experienced the team culture. Do you know of any episodes where then existing employees said, oh wow, he is better than me and start talking about it might not be a good fit, but the whole reason behind it is something else is a personal fear of being not as important anymore, being
Tom Dorsey (00:19:38):
Uwe Kleinschmidt (00:19:39):
And maybe replaced, but losing the role they’re playing. I mean, do you see stuff like that?
Jay Goninen (00:19:47):
I personally do and more
Tom Dorsey (00:19:51):
And is it healthy also? Is it healthy?
Uwe Kleinschmidt (00:19:53):
Jay Goninen (00:19:53):
Yeah, I see it more with big companies in all honesty than smaller companies because I think with a small business owner like a Fred or anybody that’s got a shop with say 10 or less techs, they’re looking at how do I pay the bills this month and move to the next month? It’s truly a, you want to make your business better regardless. And I think for the most part, the business owner seems secure. Where I see it as different is maybe in a setting where you’ve got a, and honestly on more of the dealership side, but more of a fixed ops director down to a service manager. And if that service manager is starting to make so much progress that they’re impeding on that, then there’s some type of infighting and jealousy. But for the most part, if you’re a shop owner and you’ve got a really, really highly talented service manager, maybe there is a tech that’s pushing at you and is really a strong communicator, a very well organized person that could push that service manager to be maybe a little bit jealous. But I don’t really see, and Fred, I’ll let you speak to this more because you’re dealing on a daily basis, but I don’t see the jealousy or the kind of worry from a owner to a manager level more that maybe the tech to the manager level. My off base there, Fred?
Fred Gestwicki (00:21:24):
No, no. I think what you said about the big company, small company thing definitely speaks true. If you’ve got a shop with five locations and 45 employees, it’s much harder to manage the culture because it can gain its own thing at each store or you can get little groups of people when you have a smaller business, we’re under 10 employees, it’s very easy to manage the culture. And if your culture promotes growth, if your culture promotes evolution and if your culture promotes helping the people around you become better, then actually one of your goals is to make those people better than you. So it’s welcomed in a smaller environment because it’s easier to manage that culture. I think that’s the main factor is just today I was talking to my techs and I was like, I’m excited for the day where I don’t know what you’re talking about.
When it’s a full electric car with the inverter, whatever, they start talking, I’m not taking technician training anymore. I haven’t taken technician training in seven or eight years. I don’t want to do that. And I was just telling them, I look forward to the day where you guys are telling me what’s wrong with the car and I just have that blank stare. Cool, glad you figured that out like the customer again. But when you get into that bigger shop situation where there’s multiple, there’s 40 employees, even 20 employees, it can get where what I need to know what’s going on and egos get in the way. So between culture management and ego management, I don’t know if that’s a thing. I think that you could avoid that, but that’s something you got to be very complacent of. And as the owner Uwe knows this, you cannot have an ego in the way it will be that only that Jay knows if your ego’s there, it’s just a wall to prevent you from going forward. It’s
Jay Goninen (00:23:07):
Big. Well, that’s been my approach for building finer wrench from the start is go identify really highly talented people and try to get them on board because that’s for me, I know I’m not going to be all things for everybody. And that there are, I think what I’m really aware of are what my weaknesses are and then I try to hire into those weaknesses to support that. And that’s really been effective for us internally because there’s people that bring different things to the table. And that could be the same thing with technicians. If you had a full lineup of just a level technicians, you’re probably not going to have that successful of a business because one, nobody had ever want to do an oil change. But then two, you’re paying so much for an a-level tech as compared to if you’re trying to drive margin. I dunno, it’s a great question Uwe. And I think a shop would be foolish to do that,
Uwe Kleinschmidt (00:24:05):
But it’s also a little change. Old school thinking was different and you take a certain risk. Okay, let’s talk digital shop. Two episodes coming to mind. One was we got a chat through the website, I don’t know how many years ago where tech wrote a chat and said, I quit. My boss now knows everything about me, right? Oh, I remember that. Yeah.
What And the other they nowhere to hide, nowhere to hide. And the other thing was Lindsay, maybe she is in the audience, she was last week she got interviewed about the digital shop and she said it increased morale of the team. And I’m thinking, huh, I never thought about that. And then through her interview it made so total sense. Both episodes show the transparency creates an environment in which data rules and not emotions, emotions and the dog ate my homework is a valid excuse. And so I’m curious how Fred, how you experienced that. If you have a comparison to before the digital shop, after whether you have some things to share, which go in the same direction where transparency enabled a different way of working.
Fred Gestwicki (00:25:43):
I hate to use a culture, I’m not crutching off culture, but cultures what drives your business forward. So if you have a culture that encourages transparency and just being open and if you’re having a problem at home where you’re on the verge of tears, get to work, cry it out, and then go do your job. You don’t have to hide stuff. Instead of it doing that for me where it made the technicians feel like they were exposed instead it’s made it easier to attract the younger generation of techs where you’re not buying bananas that are mushy. You know what I mean? I’m not buying something closer to its expiration date. I’m currently the oldest employee at our business and I’m 44 years old and I want to stay that way. I mean I’m not against it, but I don’t want to have people retiring while I still need them.
So the transparency of it, my technicians all agree, they never will go back to paper. They said it’s faster, it’s easier, it’s more efficient, it’s so much better to just slam a picture in for what you’re doing. And they recently added, they come up with ideas, it gives them a creative edge. They take pictures of when they’re done. They started taking pictures of all finished repairs. So the customer can contrast the old or the new or they’ll put both parts together and take a picture. So you can see, I think it’s given them another platform that they can express their love for fixing the customer’s cars. They can express what, that’s why they do what they do. Anyone that tells you of the money, they’re lying. It’s not the money. They like to take something broken, manipulate it with their hands and show it’s fixed. And if they can show that to the customer, you don’t have the tech at a dealer that’s writing down their tech notes. It’s a whole book and they know the service advisors type it in fixed car, it’s good. There’s nothing lost in the translation. They get to put pictures in the customer’s phone. They really like to give that information so your technicians can actually embrace that transparency as a edge that other shops would not have. And that’s a retention tool for those technicians also.
Jay Goninen (00:27:43):
Can I add something there? Of course. Because I think, so when you talk about that digital transformation, one of the things that I really look at as a benefit and when I say this about technicians is technicians crave to be seen as professionals big time. That’s something that we talk to a lot of technicians about and they want to get that respect level because that ultimately leads to maybe better pay or just more respect in the industry so that when you go to your guidance counselor when you’re in high school and say you want to go be a technician, the guidance counselor doesn’t roll their eyes and say, okay, lost cause see you an actual, the digital platform I think takes that professionalism to the next level. And for the technicians that are out there that might be listening to this, I think that’s the part that really excites me about this side is that you’re able to take that professionalism to a whole new level and it’s not a handwritten work order or it’s not a handwritten inspection that has oil on it and just kind of maybe not as professional appearing to the customer.
And that to me is a transformation of the entire industry. I think that’s a hugely vital piece of what we’re all trying to get to.
Tom Dorsey (00:29:02):
And so to go back because to what Uwe said is that that tech did write in and he said, Hey, this isn’t for me. I’m used to being able, I know what I’m doing. I don’t need anybody micromanaging me. I don’t need anybody looking over my shoulder even if you’re doing it digitally. So at the same degree, how deep should that transparency be in that vetting process? Hey, we’re a digital shop and this is how we do our inspections and this is how we track your labor and this is how we track your activities. And kind of put that on the table right up front because if somebody goes, I’m not into that, I know what I’m doing, I don’t need this. You kind of discover that in the beginning, right?
Fred Gestwicki (00:29:46):
Tom? With us, we have a test work order. I’ve mentioned it before. I wrote a work order on my mower because you can just do whatever you want to the work order and there’s no consequence. So if the techs want to play with something, they can do it and we add an inspection and during the interview we give them an inspection on a tablet and just let ’em play with it. Like here, try this, see if you like it. There’s no consequence. It’s my mower, so I don’t care. Try taking pictures, try clicking and just you get to see how they interact with something digital. If they’re doing this maybe not so good, they might have a little learning curve or if they’re flipping it or if you see ’em talking to it and not pushing any buttons, I mean, but to give them that taste to see if they like it. That’s very reasonable. I can’t understand. Or some shop owners think that going digital is a waste. The cars are getting smart enough to drive themselves.
How is there a world that a paper inspection makes sense when the car that you’re working on can drive itself home? I don’t see how that part, the inspection is the part, the non-text. So I mean I think digital inspection is just a piece of what we’re going to find as we evolve and as we grow where customers will see auto repairs, a digital experience, they send their car to the shop, they don’t even go, the car drives itself to you. You do your DVI, you send it to ’em, they text you what they want to do, they text to pay. And effectively you talk to ’em digitally, you don’t even talk to ’em on the phone that’s coming. It’s here on some shops. Some shops do it. So I hope that helped Tom
Jay Goninen (00:31:23):
Well, and I think there’s some level of, if you’re struggling, I see a lot of shop owners that struggle to, especially good techs to do inspections in general. Not even virtual inspection, not even a digital inspection, but an actual inspection. And it’s because maybe the tech says, Hey, I’m not doing those. I’m not going to do those inspections. And one that’s a culture thing, that means that’s probably not a good fit for your shop. But I’m guessing the same ones that fight doing a digital inspection are the same ones that fought doing just a normal inspection 10 years ago. It is probably the same kind of demographic of people that are fighting against that. And it is for text to just embrace that is such an important piece. And one thing that I would add to what Fred said is they need to understand why it’s important to do it.
I think in a lot of cases it’s the manager going out and saying, Hey, here’s this inspection. You need to do this. It’s your job. Do it. Rather than sitting down with them and saying, why do we do these inspections? And really understanding what the value is to the customer and the safety of the customer, but then the business of what you’re doing there. And so it doesn’t seem like, Hey, I’m doing this inspection so that we can oversell everything that’s on the car. That’s not the intent. The intent is to keep them safe. So I think understanding the why is such an important piece of what the technician’s role is in the shop. And that’s not just this part like inspections or anything like that, but the why you’re making them do stuff in general is a huge management advantage.
Uwe Kleinschmidt (00:33:15):
And if I may, I mean one of the things we encountered, and I don’t know how much hair I lost over it, there’s not much left was technicians wouldn’t do an inspection. And we heard the story, right? Yeah, they’re not getting paid for it, but I couldn’t believe this is the whole truth. And then we tried to go into almost anthropological studies of what’s going on in the shop and discover this kind of a dependency. It was about pencil whipping, how is pencil whipping coming about? And there is a dynamic between service advisor and technician that if one side is not doing what they’re supposed to, a trust issue can arise, right? If a service advisor doesn’t put every finding on an estimate because they’re short on time or don’t believe they can sell it right? Then a technician says after the third time, why should I put the work in? Or the clever ones say, so let me find out what he can sell especially well and check that for every car. And so now with the digital ability to measure that, there should be also for recruiting of techs. They have now a huge impact bigger than before on what’s being presented to the customer that’s new that didn’t exist before. And that should be not only a booster of morale but also of pride as you said about creating something and fixing something. Am I off?
Tom Dorsey (00:35:13):
Well, and also let me ask you too, to add to that is do you run into where the tech doesn’t want to do that inspection because hey, that’s what the C techs do, or the shop that I started in, there was a progression and I’ve been promoted inspections isn’t my thing anymore. Do you run into that also? Is that a roadblock? Especially when you’re transitioning from a different, you hire somebody out of a different shop.
Fred Gestwicki (00:35:44):
Those are things that should have came up during the interview process
Tom Dorsey (00:35:47):
Fred Gestwicki (00:35:48):
Out there. There’s definitely a disconnect. If you hand them a tablet and they’re like, what’s this for? I mean, I did have a technician in the past that he said the words, I feel like if I do another inspection, I’m going to blow my own brains out. He said that he sat there and said that. And I’m like, well, that sounds like you don’t want to be here anymore. And he is like, no, I’m done. And he left. And that said to me, you know what? All the technicians, all the advisors as they interview need to know. We’re an inspection based company. Our technicians do the inspection not only because they know that they owe it to the customer, but they know that customer’s trusting them to tell them about their car as a whole so that they can have that whole vehicle view. But yeah, when the ego is a very dangerous thing, egos do more damage than they do good, but all of us have one, we just don’t know what to do with it. Just
Tom Dorsey (00:36:44):
You got to find that out in that vetting process. Hey, real quick, also, Fred Barry Ireland’s asking, are you paying your techs to do the inspections?
Fred Gestwicki (00:36:54):
We do pay them by selling work off of it. We also pay them by, we have, our pay is a hourly with a progressive flat rate, so it’s not pure flat rate. But no, I do not give flat rate time for inspections. About a month ago we had a meeting and I asked, are you guys okay that we’re not giving flat rate time for inspections? And they’re like, it takes 20 minutes. They’re like, it takes 20 minutes and sells two and a half hours per car. They’re like, it’s fine. And we also add 22% across the board to all labor times for rust because Ohio, and it gets back some of your inspection time and little added freebies that you do for customers. So we do have different ways, but we don’t put 0.3 on the inspection line because that creates a whole set of problems. People think if I pay my text, I’ll get good inspections. It does happen sometimes, but now I paid you to do this. You need to do better. It causes a whole nother set of problems that a lot of people haven’t thought about, and you will never get that back. If you pay for inspections, you will never get back to not paying for inspections.
Tom Dorsey (00:37:59):
Fred Gestwicki (00:38:00):
Does that answer Tom?
Tom Dorsey (00:38:01):
Yeah, thank you. It’s an incredible thing because could you imagine a doctor didn’t do an inspection, right?
Fred Gestwicki (00:38:10):
I pay my doctor for inspections. Well, but here I pay my doctor for an inspection every year. Tom, I’m sure Jay does. I’m sure Uwe does. And because I pay my doctor for an inspection, he gets paid for it. So for the person that messaged in, are you charging your customers for the inspections? If you are not charging for them, how are you going to pay somebody to do it? Not many successful businesses a service that they don’t charge any money for and they pay somebody to do. So that’s the no-brainer to me right there.
Tom Dorsey (00:38:43):
And Carlos showroom over here is yelling at me. And so I just wanted to add his knowledge isn’t everything right? Nothing is worse than employee with an unpredictable attitude. You can improve change and teach skills, but you cannot change the personalities. And he says that at his shop, they hire on the personality positive attitude, easygoing individuals in the long run, if they fit the culture and the way they do business, they’ll stay and become part of the family. That is in the nutshell of what we’re talking about here is really even if you make your vetting process, I mean when you go into larger organizations or outside of the automotive industry, you might have two, three interviews. You might have a group interview where you interview with the initial person, then you come in and you interview with the whole team you’re going to be working with.
And that’s similar to inviting him over to the get shot in the face by the paintball all day that Fred just, I told you he’s outside of the box thinker, but how do you incorporate that, Jay? How do we bring that in as a regular process thing so that we don’t forget to do it here and we remember to do it here? What do you recommend to folks to have that kind of a really bulletproof process as far as it comes to vetting, as far as it comes to discovering the cultural fit and then really ramp up in training? How do you get them in? And Uwe, if you could follow up also on that because I think that’s where the digital shop really again, brings in a component that allows you to can that ramp up at least from the inspection and workflow management operational perspective to make sure that they’re right fit before you hire Jay.
Jay Goninen (00:40:32):
Yeah. So I think that the primary issue that I see is the want to do it in the first place. So you hear a lot of, even from us or from whoever, proactive recruiting, proactive recruiting, proactive recruiting. And yet so few do it and we can point to a process, we can point to anything. But I think the general want to do it and really want to put a process in place and want to follow that process and have the discipline to follow that process is huge. Now I will say one of the things that when we talk processes and we talk about getting somebody in the door, I’m a big fan of what Fred does and has them in with the team and talks with them. I’ve suggested more of going to dinner with that individual. So I think in Dave Ramsey’s book, entree Leadership, he talks about that where he says, not only do you get to know the tech or the possible employee, you get to know the spouse.
And that can play as big a role in somebody’s work, how much pride they take in their work and how much mentally they’re there. Because if they’re battling a whole bunch of stuff at home, you’re going to have a lot of issues on your hands. And that could be showing up late to work. That could be, it’s a variety of different things, but if their brain’s not there, they’re not going to be there. And so I think that’s great advice from the start of if you’re getting serious with somebody and you want to learn more about them sitting down with them and going, go have dinner with them, have their wife or husband, if it’s a female tech, come in with them. And you can learn a lot about that individual through that type of conversation, how they interact. Fred, go ahead.
Fred Gestwicki (00:42:36):
The way we call it, the family interview and the way that we segue, because when I started doing that, people spouses freaked out. They’re like, I don’t want to mess this job up for you. And that’s a lot of pressure because unheard of. So we call it the family interview, and I present it as this is your spouse’s opportunity to interview me because I want to make sure the boss at home is okay. And in the case where someone’s not married or whatever, the number one person in your life, when you have a great day, the person you celebrate with, when you have a bad day, the person you go to, my lead tech, I interviewed with his sister. So that’s the segue. People are like, I’m not going to talk these people about bringing their wife in for dinner. Let the spouse pick where, let the spouse pick when and let them interview you. And you get to see the two people, how they interact, who’s in charge of who. If there’s constant clashing during dinner, that might be a red flag. So I just wanted to give that to you, Jay, as a way that we overcame the hesitation because I’ve had spouses say they don’t want to go
Tom Dorsey (00:43:38):
That brilliant. That’s why you subscribe to the Digital Shop Talk Radio. You don’t want to miss an episode because we get people in here that know stuff. And I mean, that is a fabulous piece of advice right there, Fred. I think a lot of people are probably scribbling that down on a piece of paper and about to implement that interview me and like you said, put them on where they’re comfortable, let them pick the turf and you come in and boy, because if that sends a message that we’re looking at a long-term relationship here and you better be too.
Fred Gestwicki (00:44:06):
Yes, exactly. And I exchanged phone numbers with that person during that interview and be like, Hey, if something, you need to talk to me. I’m not just a fictitious person that you hear your husband’s complaining about and praising about, and you’re all confused. I’m now a real person that you can contact at any time and getting a link where your work team and your home team have at least an open channel communication. I’ve had that avoid a couple catastrophes just because someone had a bad morning, nothing went their way. And I get a text from the wife, they’re kind of on the rampage today. I’m just giving you the heads up. And it’s nice to at least know what you’re walking into. And I’ve called her, I’ve called the wife on the way to work and be like, give me some advice, girl. I don’t know what to do if dude’s tripping. Give me some ideas. This is your man. I’ve got ’em all day. And it’s good because that lets you know you’re in for the long term.
Tom Dorsey (00:44:57):
Bill. Connor, real quick is asking, what do you do if they pick a place where they don’t serve cow, no steak on a stick.
Fred Gestwicki (00:45:05):
Where’s this place? Where would this be? Bring a burger with you. There’s so many options.
Jay Goninen (00:45:13):
Bring your own stick, right, Fred?
Fred Gestwicki (00:45:15):
Yes. Yeah. Tofu on a stick.
Tom Dorsey (00:45:19):
Well, that’s brilliant. I mean, that’s brilliant. And it’s funny too because Bill and Carlos actually posted almost the exact same thing, right? Shop culture, it’s their job to get that inspection done. Carlos says they have the A and the C tech doing the inspections there because it is where they really sit. It’s our job to give the complete and status of that vehicle to the customer. It’s really about the customer. It’s about what you deliver to the customer, not about who does it and how It’s a great idea to have that checks and balances in there between the A and the C tech so that you make sure it’s comprehensive and you can get them to do it right the first time. Well,
Jay Goninen (00:46:00):
And just to add one last thing there is it doesn’t matter. Every shop has that alpha tech or that person that everybody looks up to. And what he says or she says is that’s what goes, and they look up to that person. If that person doesn’t create a great culture, and that goes for inspections, that goes for anything. You’re going to have one heck of a hard time getting the rest of the shop to buy in. So when we talk culture, that is maybe the most important hire in a shop, not just from a technical standpoint, but how everybody else is going to follow something as simple as an inspection or something, picking up a broom and sweeping the floor. If nothing’s going on, that person sets the tone for the rest of the shop. And if that person’s not right, you’re going to have one heck of a battle on your hands.
Fred Gestwicki (00:46:54):
That’s not always your A tech just there. Because in our shop, our leader in the shops are B tech and it’s working extremely well. So it’s not always going to be your A tech or your advisor. It could be the wash guy. You never know.
Jay Goninen (00:47:06):
Tom Dorsey (00:47:07):
And that’s exactly back to Uwe’s point, right? Is when you hire somebody who you feel threatened is going to be better than you or could potentially replace you, is that a healthy thing? Does that competition in there drive a better culture or can it go off the rails and into the weeds quickly? And then there’s a toxic environment between these two fighting it out, especially if one’s the A tech and one’s the B Tech. I mean, that makes it even more difficult, I would assume. Yeah.
Jay Goninen (00:47:37):
Yeah. That’s where one bad hire can impact the entire shop and the entire business that can turn a great shop into a not so great shop overnight.
Tom Dorsey (00:47:51):
Wow. Yeah. That’s really, that’s an interesting dynamic because I know I hear at auto bottles what we do. I know we go out of our way to try to put that dynamic in place to get people to drive each other, to be better, to compete in a healthy manner. But boy, it sure could go sideways with a quickness, and it’s hard to unring that bell because it doesn’t take long for everybody else on that team to pick a side and hopefully they’re not in the death spiral.
Uwe Kleinschmidt (00:48:26):
I have an observation to share. We’re talking about recruiting, and the one word you hear every single time, normally extremely quickly, is technician shortage. We haven’t even used it. And we’re almost over. So tell me about,
Tom Dorsey (00:48:43):
Well, what about a tech shortage? What tech shortage?
Jay Goninen (00:48:47):
Yeah. This is the first I’m hearing of this Uwe. No, I’m just kidding.
So to me, what we need to work on as an industry is working on keeping the people we have in the business and creating such a great industry that people don’t want to leave. Because if we keep recruiting people in, and granted we need to do that too, right? I’m not saying that stop going to high schools and tech schools and trying to get more people in, but we’ve got a real problem with veteran techs flat out leaving the industry. And it could be because of pay, it could be because they want to take care of their bodies. There’s a number of different things. But when our highly skilled people leave the industry and then we try to replace them and then we just don’t have enough people to replace them. And especially as baby boomers are getting older and getting closer to retirement age, that’s a real concern for us at Find A Wrench. It’s a real concern for everybody throughout the industry. And that’s where when we look at it, we’ve got to focus not only getting more people in the industry, we’ve got to really focus at taking care of the people that are here already so that when we do bring more people in, we’ve got a solid foundation. And there’s times where we just, I think we missed that.
Uwe Kleinschmidt (00:50:05):
Go ahead, Fred. Sorry.
Fred Gestwicki (00:50:06):
I was going to say one of the main problems with entry level technician jobs is that entry level other stuff pays more
Jay Goninen (00:50:18):
And there’s no investment. A tech where a tech is having to buy their own tools. They’re oftentimes the least paid person that has the highest investment
Fred Gestwicki (00:50:28):
To go like a plumber. What’s a plumber? Got to buy a couple hundred bucks worth of stuff, a thousand dollars worth of stuff, and he’s good electrician, $3,000 worth of stuff technician, a hundred thousand dollars worth of total 8,000 bucks worth. And that’s one of the problems
Tom Dorsey (00:50:45):
Is 15 bucks an hour
Fred Gestwicki (00:50:48):
And you’re in California just saying, so there’s the whole pay problem. And then like Uwe touched earlier, the recognition of not being thought of as, oh, you’re a grease monkey. That stigma still hasn’t been overcome. And going to the future when the cars are just 10 million lines of code with a bunch of modules in an electric motor and a battery, the technician is going to be the smartest of the blue collar trades. But we’ve got to find a way to bring our industry up to where it’s a more attractive career path. If you’re coming out of high school, I don’t want to go to college. I could be a plumber, go to the union or go to the plumber’s hall, go wherever you’re going to go figure out how to be a plumber in a couple of years. You’re making money already. Go be an electrician. Go be a welder, go be a carpenter. Or should I go sign up for a Snap-on for life program where you’re just going to pay them weekly for the rest of your foreseeable,
Tom Dorsey (00:51:43):
Not around a cool van.
Fred Gestwicki (00:51:44):
It just doesn’t look good. And we have to find a way to, with our recruitment to make it look good. And as an industry, let it look good because it’s hard to figure out a broke car. It’s not easy.
Jay Goninen (00:51:56):
Yeah. Fred, you and I have had conversations about that too, where trying to figure out different ways to solve this puzzle or put this puzzle together and that when we launched WrenchWay, that was a big thinking behind that is we’ve got to showcase the best of the best that are out there because that’s the way that we keep people in the industry. That’s how we attract more to the industry. It really at the core of it is to me what we need to fix about our industry.
Tom Dorsey (00:52:26):
Man, I can’t believe the show’s almost over. I need another half hour. How did this happen? Well,
Jay Goninen (00:52:32):
Both Fred and I are pretty shy. We don’t talk a whole lot. So
Tom Dorsey (00:52:37):
I mean, I could go all day. Yes, those dynamics that you just explained are coming. They’re happening as we speak. But what happens when I have to have advanced degree? What happens if I have to go to computer science in a four year type college and then I can go work at AutoVitals and get paid slightly more? But I mean, now you’re competing against a literal software computer science type job or going shop and make an apprentice wage and like you said, invest all that money in my tools. I don’t have to invest a hundred thousand dollars. And I think it’s a little tiny screwdriver that opens up a computer and you can get ’em at Harbor Freight. I think they’re a nickel, but what happens when that comes in? And now other industries are starting to even rob away, not just trade industries, be a plumber or be a tech, but now be a software engineer or be a tech, even be on the Geek Squad, it might pay more, right? Just go down and fix broken stuff.
Jay Goninen (00:53:42):
Well, and that’s one of the things we talked about during technician that I think is a conversation that we’re going to have to start having more often, which is what are the future of labor rates for shops in general? And as the technology advances, so does the tooling, so do the people, it’s going to take some raise in labor rate. I just don’t see a way where significantly, I agree, and Fred, I’d be interested to hear your take on this. That’s just something that I see where I’m like, we got to change something.
Tom Dorsey (00:54:12):
And earlier, and also if you could, what I posed earlier, do you see in the future there’s this master tech that’s got all this specialized training who now becomes an independent, he just sells his services to multiple shops,
Uwe Kleinschmidt (00:54:31):
Diagnostician, right? They’re already businesses. Resource respect that
Jay Goninen (00:54:35):
Yes, there is
Fred Gestwicki (00:54:36):
Too locally to us. They’re mobile automotive diagnostic techs that the mobile programming company closed. So the two techs just opened their own thing, and if they’re shop, they can’t figure a car out. You call this guy, he comes out, charges you a couple hundred bucks, figures it out and leaves specialization is one of the options like was mentioned. But it’s unreasonable to think that all independent shops become specialized because pride gets in the way. It’s hard to say, no, I can’t figure out your car. I don’t work on those and have all this pride. I like to,
Uwe Kleinschmidt (00:55:10):
If I make customer service goes down too, because you now start sending them to different doctors, so to speak.
Fred Gestwicki (00:55:17):
Yeah, no accountability either because you’ve sent me here and they didn’t fix it. And I like to use the furniture industry to compare our automotive underpricing furniture is the opposite. They have a tremendous overpricing and because all the furniture people decided they’re going to take a $200 couch and sell it for a grand, they do. And there’s a few places like Big Lots where you can go get a couch that’s a little bit less nice for 200 bucks, but if you want a nice couch, it’s a thousand dollars. It doesn’t matter what you do. You can go online, doesn’t exist. And as an industry, we can’t price fix and be like, all right, all shops are at least 200 bucks an hour. We can’t do that. But having more shop owners, be business owners versus be mechanics that have an open sign on the front of this building where they’re looking at their cost, realizing what they need to pay mechanics to keep those technicians on staff and not leaving the industry, and then what kind of profit do you have to make off that labor to be renewable and then charge that way? That’s my side. Jay, is I just did labor review increase a couple weeks ago and it went up a dollar six an hour. I take my cost, my average cost for my hours. I know what my profit marginality is, and I just calculate it out and that’s what I charge. I don’t care what anybody else is charging. Love it.
Jay Goninen (00:56:38):
Love that approach.
Fred Gestwicki (00:56:39):
It’s hard. It’s hard because you’d be scared when you see across the street. For me as a shop, that charge is $40 to do a check engine late and our shop’s 152, I don’t care. You have to stop caring what everybody else is doing and do what’s the right thing
Jay Goninen (00:56:54):
And just do what you do really, really well. And that’s when you do that. You can charge and people will still come. That’s what I hope people get out of this.
Fred Gestwicki (00:57:04):
You don’t pay for a piece of beef at Ruth Chris, 150 bucks because it’s such good beef.
Jay Goninen (00:57:11):
Fred Gestwicki (00:57:11):
Not that you get a burger at Red Robin, a burger, McDonald’s, it’s beef, it’s ground up cow. It doesn’t matter how you look at it. It’s the service. It’s the experience and create an experience. Fixing the car is no longer important. It does matter, but that is the very most bottom important thing in the customer’s eyes. The experience as a whole is the way you retain customers and employees, technicians. If you’re giving them a great work experience that helps them have a great life experience, why would they go anywhere else?
Jay Goninen (00:57:43):
That’s the key point of the entire thing. Create a foundation. Yes, create a great foundation of a great place to work at. And honestly, I think that leads into the customer satisfaction side, the ability to charge more because you have better customer experience, but it starts with people. And if you can figure out ways to pay those people and treat them right, I think you win in this business.
Tom Dorsey (00:58:08):
And it all comes back to treating the customer, right, because then the customer allows you to treat the staff and sit your labor rates where they need to be to attract. It’s funny, Bill something in, I can’t believe we’re at the top of the hour. We got to go. I mean, I got to have you guys back on. I have a whole nother hour to explore. We got to dig into this upcoming tech tsunami thingy or whatever’s happening in Tech Getin. But Bill’s saying, Hey, the industry devalues itself by trying to be the customer hero based on price instead of delivering quality. And Carlos basically said the exact same thing, right? We price our labor aid on what we deliver, not what the market’s pricing. And that takes a lot of courage. It’s courage of your conviction. It’s courage of your product, and you have to be able to get out there and put that stamp on there and yeah, like to what Fred said, the guy across the street charging 40 bucks.
So what we’re going to have to charge you double after he breaks it and you got to come over here to have it fixed and it’s a long haul and it’s one of those things where you have to stick by that gun. You have to make that mark and put that flag in the sand and then you have to defend it. You can’t just start moving the goalposts around it because it’s scary or revenue’s down today and you really have to commit and double down and it has to be a team effort and you have to get after it. And we see it, right? We see, we look at metrics all day in shops, so we know the ones that stick to those guns and it pays off because then they’re putting up a trajectory that they could never even imagine. Under paper competition, market pricing be damned. It’s about that quality and it’s about setting. It’s why people line up around the block for Apple product for the iPhone release. Phone’s a phone, boy, they’ll line up sleep in tents on the sidewalk to get that thing. Not me, but some deal. Fred.
Fred Gestwicki (01:00:11):
No, I’m agreeing with Apple because why not? I just don’t, yeah, I’m not part of the Apple cult.
Uwe Kleinschmidt (01:00:18):
Just throwing it out there.
Tom Dorsey (01:00:20):
Bill’s asking, I guess a operational question. Did you test the voice to text on your pc?
Fred Gestwicki (01:00:27):
I did, but Bill, I need to train. Who’s the lady in the Windows based pc? Cortana. I have not trained Cortana because my voice is the anti talk to text. My Google assistant knows what to do, but I have not trained Cortana to hear my voice, so it does work. But Bill shared with me Windows in the H key turns, any Windows 10 computer into voice to text, coolest thing in the world know that. And it’s a toggle on and off. You don’t hold it. You click Windows H and it pops up with the window and you talk and it all comes out and you hit Windows H. So you must train Cortana if your voice sounds like this though. So Uwe, if you decide to get rid of all Apple products in your life and go to Windows, you’ll have to train Cortana.
Uwe Kleinschmidt (01:01:10):
Look, look. I had that conversion, the faith conversion already. I don’t think I’m going to go back.
Fred Gestwicki (01:01:18):
Oh, you’re off of Apple?
Uwe Kleinschmidt (01:01:20):
No, no, no, no, never. I was a Windows user and believer.
Tom Dorsey (01:01:27):
Normally he’s wearing a black turtleneck even. He’s,
Uwe Kleinschmidt (01:01:34):
Oh man, that’s
Tom Dorsey (01:01:35):
How big of a fan. Boy, he’s
Uwe Kleinschmidt (01:01:37):
That’s funny.
Tom Dorsey (01:01:38):
Hey, listen, we got to get, guys, that’s a good one. You got to get, but before we go, I just want to, tomorrow is the Digital Shop Summit, so if you’re not registered, get over to the, get registered. We’re having a all day breakouts. Great. You don’t want to catch mine specifically. I think I’m at 10 45 or something like that, but get registered next week. We’re talking multi shops. We’ve got Fred Haynes coming on. We’ve got JR Luna coming on to talk about one guy’s an independent and he’s kicking butt through Covid opening and expanding his business. The other guy comes from the franchise side, Honest-1 and would be a great dynamic on how they both approach that, how the digital shop allows them to clone themselves pretty much and be able to wrangle all those kittens, herding them kittens when you’re talking about multi shop management.
So same time, same place, 10:00 AM Pacific, 1:00 PM Eastern. Jay in it. Man, I can’t thank you enough for coming in. You are an awesome, awesome guest. I look forward to having you on again, talking more. We got a lot to talk about still. Oh my goodness. And for this week, of course, as always, buddy, thank you enough, man. I got to get out to Canton. I got to get out and have that stake on a stick once this Covid thing and trade shows start up and we get to do workshops and stuff like that again. Or I’m going to twist both of your arms to be coming out to the digital shop conference if we get to have it live and in person this next coming year. Can’t wait to have both of you and see you again. Uwe, as always, thank you, sir. Your insight and brilliance is highly regarded even without turtleneck, I know you put it on after the episode and I don’t shame you for that. I think everybody,
Jay Goninen (01:03:32):
He’s just got the priest thing where he puts it back on.
Tom Dorsey (01:03:37):
Put a little paper towel in there real quick. What? It’s October Halloween. What? Alright. Thanks everybody for tuning in. I know you learned a lot of stuff. Send us your ideas, come on the show and talk about your success. We’d love to have you on till next Wednesday. Get out there and make some more money in 2020.

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